Hi Rob, it's EmmaENFJ from twitter. As a divergent subtype (if this is indeed applicable) I really relate to this. I actually fear that my convergent usage of FeSe needs polishing in order to convey harder Ti truths indeed, it's often my way or the high way, which doesn't get you far in life. What's the point in synthesising abstract theorem & creating something novel if you can't effectively communicate this to people & get them on board? I have to say I'm much better in person, on a small scale, communicating & 'convincing' others rather in the written format where things can often be misconstrued. I know Harry has said in one video that Fe doms tend to have the most fluid axis (he rated my Fe/Ti as 50/50), do you have any thoughts on whether you think this is the case and if so, why this would be the case comparative to other types as a general rule? I work in an environment where hard truths are not acknowledged & are rarely learnt from by 'the big guns upstairs'; there's simply no innovation and we end up repeating the same mistakes over and over again which fundamentally lets the people down we're supposed to be caring for (I'm a mental health professional/student post grad), I think I end up inevitably pushing back into my divergent subtype due to this perpetual disappointment with reality, however, I have been the spokesperson, nominated by the team to speak on their behalf and the patients when it's been necessary (every ENFJ whether they'll admit it or not loves a cause to fight for). Faced with perpetual pessimism I can't help but feel I'll always feel the pull of not reaching my potential & continually leaning into the divergent pairing. Can I ask, if I move away from this subtype into a more default state, do you think the level/aptitude of convergence TiNi remains or does this dissipate'? I'd like to believe that as our cognition expands, we harness still that which has been perfected in the past, ie there's no 'trade off'. I hate being a pessimist (perhaps I'm just a realist) but I think we need to face hard Ti truths to make any real progression especially in my profession where there's very little in the way of hard empirical knowledge to anchor our practice into...We need to try alternative methods/ideas and face what's going on on a systemic level to really make a difference to our patients lives...We work with a biomedical model that posits that giving pharmaceutical's is the answer when that's evidently not working (or at least not the core issue). Hey, maybe I need to position myself in a place of senior management to really make a difference on a societal level. On a positive note, I think there's much more parity of esteem between doctors, nurses and other mental health professionals that we're not working in a hierarchical model where only medicines voice is heard. It sometimes astounds me that people either fail to see Ti truths or choose to blatantly ignore them. I've found myself side-lined for promotion at times as what have to say authentically simply isn't popular, even if everyone is thinking it in the room. It can be a hard pill to swallow when some other professionals really don't want your insights but I try to remember that, fundamentally, I'm advocating for some very vulnerable patients who aren't currently in a position to advocate for themselves. Slightly off topic, but I've seen many Ti doms being able to convey their Ti to others in a way that far surpasses my own. On a different note, regarding the oppositional, as you said regarding ESPs, my ESFP fiancé, despite being 9 years my junior, is extremely insightful and philosophical about what he wants from life. Indeed it's one of the things that attracted me to him - his axis is extremely fluid & we've always been able to have them deep & profound conversations. I don't know if this is due to ENFJ perfectionistic tendencies or superfluous to type, but I often blame myself for not being able to initiate change (the change I wish to see which I believe is for everyone's benefit in the long run) & perceive myself as quite an ineffectual person but I'd take the Ti truth any day over pleasing other people even if my Ti perspectives are unpopular. Apologies I've went completely off topic here! It just makes me consider, that if a very personable ENFJ cannot convince other people then what hope, in the area I work in, does anyone else have? Sorry, I'm coming across as OTT hyperbolic, but without breaking my code of confidentiality I can say I've had a week in work where the status quo as had an unambiguously detrimental impact on patient care, actually, seriously so.
> If I move away from this subtype into a more default state, do you think the level/aptitude of convergence TiNi remains or does this dissipate?
I think what changes in moving away from the divergent subtype is the inclination of staying close to the divergent functions, which is often a defensive attitude. By shedding this attitude, a new, more optimistic attitude emerges. So I'd say the level/aptitude of TiNi convergence gets even better!
> I know Harry has said in one video that Fe doms tend to have the most fluid axis (he rated my Fe/Ti as 50/50), do you have any thoughts on whether you think this is the case and if so, why this would be the case comparative to other types as a general rule?
Culturally, we live in Thinking biased world. This is particularly true in today's productivity driven culture. As Michael Pollan would say, we built the modern world on caffeine. We've developed both T- and T+ to motivate ourselves and acquire the necessary skills to succeed in society.
Psychologically, we communicate via the Thinking medium. Information transfers through logic. To express emotions, we use tones, body movements, color, language, etc, on a cognitive level that sets humans apart from other animals. Some would say this is what defines being human. Our logical left brain evolved to convey our subjective experiences to one another.
Adding these two points, it makes sense that the more humanitarian types like the ENFJ would be most concerned about developing the T functions and gain axis fluidity.
This is very well done! I almost never see anyone talk about the strengths of the Oppositional. I view it as the function we "display" to others to receive reassurance that it is operating correctly. At least, that is my experience with Se Oppositional. I wonder if the introverted Oppositional functions manifest differently.
That's a great way to describe the extraverted Oppositional function!
We can think of "displaying" as a static external activity. Since their extraverted functions are dynamic, extraverts are literally manifesting or making change happen, instead of displaying. The world itself is the manifestation of their introverted functions. And changes need direction, which is given by their introverted Oppositional serving as a mental compass. They need to check their Oppositional is operating correctly too, otherwise they'd going in the wrong direction. The reassurance would come from themselves evaluating if the world they've shaped meets their desires. Feedback from how others are affected by their changes also helps.
For extroverts, " the world is a manifestation of their introverted functions." I love this! Admittedly as a divergent ENFJ I feel like this inner world is often subject to change as I'm constantly reformulating. I probably therefore don't find this as frightening as say my more default twin sister would. Although Shopenhauer wasn't an ENFJ, I often feel like that perpetually disappointed innovator who wants to come up with these outlandish ideas simply to sow discontent in those that are antagonistic to change. Now here's hoping my Ni authority can stick with something long enough to make some kind of difference. On a completely different topic, I often feel like the Ni authority of the ENFJ is akin to some kind of narcissism; I remember Harry asking me if I felt like I was born to make a societal difference (I think most ENFJs feel this way) and I have to admit, yup, I've always felt this way - good to know it's not a narcissistic traits but rather something the ENFJ is imbued with. I'm finding now that I may go into academic teaching and research; if I can't convince the 'big guns' then shaping the future generation of mental health professionals is a good place to start and the written word is freely accessible to anyone. Anyway, I take a great delight in enlightening other people but my ideas are often seen as antagonistic to the status quo so I'm often marginalised or treated with contempt; it's hard to maintain that upbeat personable persona when people aren't always receptive to your Ti irrespective of how you FeSe deliver it. I get people have different priorities and goals, my TeNe can perceive that so I'm realistic about what can be done in the short term but I find many people so short sighted; sometimes we need an overhaul in our thinking to make real progress instead of fudging metrics to make it seem superficially like we're doing a good job. Apologies for gatecrashing the post & needless tangents!
Hi Rob, it's EmmaENFJ from twitter. As a divergent subtype (if this is indeed applicable) I really relate to this. I actually fear that my convergent usage of FeSe needs polishing in order to convey harder Ti truths indeed, it's often my way or the high way, which doesn't get you far in life. What's the point in synthesising abstract theorem & creating something novel if you can't effectively communicate this to people & get them on board? I have to say I'm much better in person, on a small scale, communicating & 'convincing' others rather in the written format where things can often be misconstrued. I know Harry has said in one video that Fe doms tend to have the most fluid axis (he rated my Fe/Ti as 50/50), do you have any thoughts on whether you think this is the case and if so, why this would be the case comparative to other types as a general rule? I work in an environment where hard truths are not acknowledged & are rarely learnt from by 'the big guns upstairs'; there's simply no innovation and we end up repeating the same mistakes over and over again which fundamentally lets the people down we're supposed to be caring for (I'm a mental health professional/student post grad), I think I end up inevitably pushing back into my divergent subtype due to this perpetual disappointment with reality, however, I have been the spokesperson, nominated by the team to speak on their behalf and the patients when it's been necessary (every ENFJ whether they'll admit it or not loves a cause to fight for). Faced with perpetual pessimism I can't help but feel I'll always feel the pull of not reaching my potential & continually leaning into the divergent pairing. Can I ask, if I move away from this subtype into a more default state, do you think the level/aptitude of convergence TiNi remains or does this dissipate'? I'd like to believe that as our cognition expands, we harness still that which has been perfected in the past, ie there's no 'trade off'. I hate being a pessimist (perhaps I'm just a realist) but I think we need to face hard Ti truths to make any real progression especially in my profession where there's very little in the way of hard empirical knowledge to anchor our practice into...We need to try alternative methods/ideas and face what's going on on a systemic level to really make a difference to our patients lives...We work with a biomedical model that posits that giving pharmaceutical's is the answer when that's evidently not working (or at least not the core issue). Hey, maybe I need to position myself in a place of senior management to really make a difference on a societal level. On a positive note, I think there's much more parity of esteem between doctors, nurses and other mental health professionals that we're not working in a hierarchical model where only medicines voice is heard. It sometimes astounds me that people either fail to see Ti truths or choose to blatantly ignore them. I've found myself side-lined for promotion at times as what have to say authentically simply isn't popular, even if everyone is thinking it in the room. It can be a hard pill to swallow when some other professionals really don't want your insights but I try to remember that, fundamentally, I'm advocating for some very vulnerable patients who aren't currently in a position to advocate for themselves. Slightly off topic, but I've seen many Ti doms being able to convey their Ti to others in a way that far surpasses my own. On a different note, regarding the oppositional, as you said regarding ESPs, my ESFP fiancé, despite being 9 years my junior, is extremely insightful and philosophical about what he wants from life. Indeed it's one of the things that attracted me to him - his axis is extremely fluid & we've always been able to have them deep & profound conversations. I don't know if this is due to ENFJ perfectionistic tendencies or superfluous to type, but I often blame myself for not being able to initiate change (the change I wish to see which I believe is for everyone's benefit in the long run) & perceive myself as quite an ineffectual person but I'd take the Ti truth any day over pleasing other people even if my Ti perspectives are unpopular. Apologies I've went completely off topic here! It just makes me consider, that if a very personable ENFJ cannot convince other people then what hope, in the area I work in, does anyone else have? Sorry, I'm coming across as OTT hyperbolic, but without breaking my code of confidentiality I can say I've had a week in work where the status quo as had an unambiguously detrimental impact on patient care, actually, seriously so.
> If I move away from this subtype into a more default state, do you think the level/aptitude of convergence TiNi remains or does this dissipate?
I think what changes in moving away from the divergent subtype is the inclination of staying close to the divergent functions, which is often a defensive attitude. By shedding this attitude, a new, more optimistic attitude emerges. So I'd say the level/aptitude of TiNi convergence gets even better!
> I know Harry has said in one video that Fe doms tend to have the most fluid axis (he rated my Fe/Ti as 50/50), do you have any thoughts on whether you think this is the case and if so, why this would be the case comparative to other types as a general rule?
Culturally, we live in Thinking biased world. This is particularly true in today's productivity driven culture. As Michael Pollan would say, we built the modern world on caffeine. We've developed both T- and T+ to motivate ourselves and acquire the necessary skills to succeed in society.
Psychologically, we communicate via the Thinking medium. Information transfers through logic. To express emotions, we use tones, body movements, color, language, etc, on a cognitive level that sets humans apart from other animals. Some would say this is what defines being human. Our logical left brain evolved to convey our subjective experiences to one another.
Adding these two points, it makes sense that the more humanitarian types like the ENFJ would be most concerned about developing the T functions and gain axis fluidity.
"If we lead with our Dominant function, then we are led by our Oppositional function."
Well said.
This is very well done! I almost never see anyone talk about the strengths of the Oppositional. I view it as the function we "display" to others to receive reassurance that it is operating correctly. At least, that is my experience with Se Oppositional. I wonder if the introverted Oppositional functions manifest differently.
That's a great way to describe the extraverted Oppositional function!
We can think of "displaying" as a static external activity. Since their extraverted functions are dynamic, extraverts are literally manifesting or making change happen, instead of displaying. The world itself is the manifestation of their introverted functions. And changes need direction, which is given by their introverted Oppositional serving as a mental compass. They need to check their Oppositional is operating correctly too, otherwise they'd going in the wrong direction. The reassurance would come from themselves evaluating if the world they've shaped meets their desires. Feedback from how others are affected by their changes also helps.
For extroverts, " the world is a manifestation of their introverted functions." I love this! Admittedly as a divergent ENFJ I feel like this inner world is often subject to change as I'm constantly reformulating. I probably therefore don't find this as frightening as say my more default twin sister would. Although Shopenhauer wasn't an ENFJ, I often feel like that perpetually disappointed innovator who wants to come up with these outlandish ideas simply to sow discontent in those that are antagonistic to change. Now here's hoping my Ni authority can stick with something long enough to make some kind of difference. On a completely different topic, I often feel like the Ni authority of the ENFJ is akin to some kind of narcissism; I remember Harry asking me if I felt like I was born to make a societal difference (I think most ENFJs feel this way) and I have to admit, yup, I've always felt this way - good to know it's not a narcissistic traits but rather something the ENFJ is imbued with. I'm finding now that I may go into academic teaching and research; if I can't convince the 'big guns' then shaping the future generation of mental health professionals is a good place to start and the written word is freely accessible to anyone. Anyway, I take a great delight in enlightening other people but my ideas are often seen as antagonistic to the status quo so I'm often marginalised or treated with contempt; it's hard to maintain that upbeat personable persona when people aren't always receptive to your Ti irrespective of how you FeSe deliver it. I get people have different priorities and goals, my TeNe can perceive that so I'm realistic about what can be done in the short term but I find many people so short sighted; sometimes we need an overhaul in our thinking to make real progress instead of fudging metrics to make it seem superficially like we're doing a good job. Apologies for gatecrashing the post & needless tangents!